Youth brain drain
===

Dariusz: [00:00:00] Hi everyone and welcome back to Under 30, the podcast from the EU-Council of Europe Youth Partnership. Today we are diving into a big topic, youth brain drain. Why so many young, talented people from regions like the Western Balkans, the Eastern Partnership in Türkiye, are moving abroad and often not coming back.

To help us understand this better, I'm joined by the authors of the study, Youth Brain Drain, Gökay Özerim and  Samir Beharić. Together we will talk about what's driving this trend, what it means for societies and young people, and how we might turn brain drain into something more like brain circulation. So let's get started.

So can you introduce yourself at the beginning and tell us who you are? Gokay, maybe [00:01:00] we start with you.

Gokay: Yeah, sure. My name is Gökay Özerim. I'm a professor of international relations. My major study fields are huge. International security and migration, and for more than five years, I have been involved in the Pool of European Youth Researchers Group by the Joint Initiative of the Council of Europe and the European Commission.

Samir: Hello everyone. My name is Samir Beharić. I come from Bosnia Herzegovina. Currently I'm doing my PhD in migration studies at the University of Bamberg in Germany. Just like Gokay, I'm also a member of a Pool of European Youth Researchers, and together with Gokay I authored this study on youth brain drain from the three regions that we will be discussing here.

Dariusz: It's quite a big and dense publication. There's a lot of things there, I must say when I read it, it's quite scary to read some of the things that are there. But there is a lot ofrecommendations or responses that you actually try to also come up with on the basis of the research that you've done.

We are going to talk about it as well, but maybe at the [00:02:00] beginning, let's explain a little bit what this youth brain drain is. What kind of term is it? Is a scientific term, when is it used? what kind of phenomena does it describe?

Samir: So basically brain drain is indeed a scientific, migrational phenomenon, but in a nutshell, it describes a outward migration. So emigration of young, highly educated population from one country. Usually those are underdeveloped countries, countries with high unemployment rates, low income rates, also high corruption rates, et cetera, into developed countries.

So basically speaking, we are speaking here aboutthe instance where young population, those are usually highly educated young people. They can be also highly educated in their own country or in their non-native countries who might return to their own country.

And then emigrates looking for either a new job or looking for, you know, better education purposes and then staying abroad. So basically we're speaking here in a [00:03:00] nutshell, about emigration of youth population that usually does not come back. If they come back, then we are speaking about brain gain or brain circulation,similar terms, but we should not be scared by the term itself.

Maybe, Gokay might want to add a line or two additional.

Gokay: Yeah, as Samir explained, it's a very comprehensive and complex concept actually, because it involves students, recent graduates, early career professionals, who are moving abroad for studying, working or more predictable future. So in the research literature, there are variety of types of emigration.

And this type of emigration is emigration of highly educated people. And in our study, we focused on youth dimension of this brain drain, actually.

Dariusz: Okay. Yeah. I think it's clear now. It looks very scary, but it's quite easy, I think, to understand what, what it means. But maybe we talk a little bit about what you found out [00:04:00] in, in your study. So we know what youth brain drain is. Let's start with the kind of showing the picture.

You studied three regions, Western Balkans, Eastern Partnership countries, and Türkiye. So what is the scope of this phenomenon? What does it look like? Is it really that big?

Gokay: Actually, it is very interesting. These three regions have many common dimensions in terms of youth brain drain. So while doing our analysis and report, we would like to distinguish the very descriptive aspects of the youth brain drain from these regions, but also we would like to underline and analyze the major different points among these regions.

So when we look at these regions, we see several similarities, but also differences. so it matters for all of these three geographies because when we look at the numbers, we see that there are [00:05:00] large population youth cohorts leaving their countries and starting their lives in another country. For instance, when we look at the Western Balkans countries, they lose up to 20% of their population due to emigration between 1990s up until today.

So when we look at the Eastern partnership countries, for instance, we see eU countries as a major target for the young population in recent years. Many young people started to leave their countries due to the different reasons. So in the big picture, our report tries to summarize these differences and similarities between the regions, but also we need to underline, an important part of the problems are connected with the social, political, and economic dynamics of these regions.

Samir: Maybe, maybe just to add here, when we speak about regions, we even decided to speak about the regions slash geographies. So maybe the [00:06:00] listeners might ask why are you speaking about regions? And then there is also Türkiye as a country, maybe for those who don't know, Western Balkans is comprised of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Serbia. Those are five Council of Europe member states plus Kosovo. When it comes to Eastern Partnership, we have even more. We have Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, and then in addition to these two geographies slash regions we have Türkiye as a country, and as Gokay already emphasized the scope, it is relatively big. And it also differs from region to region, from geography to geography, because in some cases we have brain drain, which is, for example, in the cases of certain Western Balkan countries, goes back into early nineties,with the break of Yugoslavia, with the war in the Balkans, and then continues up until today when young people are emigrating because of search for better educational opportunities, better job opportunities or simply, because they want to havemore secure future for their [00:07:00] children, for their offsprings. And that's why they are saying, okay, if I'm already working as an IT engineer in North Macedonia I might just, you know, establish my family in Germany. And also Gokay already emphasized, you know, it's Western Europe, mostly Germany, Austria, you know, these highly developed, technologically developed countries that, that, predominantly young people are aiming to go abrad.

Dariusz: Thank you. Yeah, 20% is quite a big number. But also when I looked at your study, there is even bigger percentage of young people who would consider moving, even if it was possible for them, because the numbers like around 70%. So these numbers are really, really big.

Why is it, I mean you mentioned already a little bit, but maybe let's explain to our listeners what are the reasons for this youth brain drain. When I read it, I found a lot of them very interesting. I think one of them that's, maybe worth discussing is this, seeing this normalization of emigration, it seemed like an expected life choice for young people in this [00:08:00] regions.

So what are these reasons and what are the most overlooked reasons? So what are these, kind of deep reasons that maybe we have to think, especially when we think about how to respond to this, because sometimes solving the problem is not to look at the manifestations, but also what are the reasons?

I think maybe this is the point of intervention. Very often this is the only point of intervention actually. So the reasons.

Gokay: If we have to name the first one, I think as we also underlined in our report, it is trust and predictability, because beyond low wages, this is important, we are always discussing or have a tendency to discuss brain drain interlinked with the economic structures. But beyond low wages and economic problems, people are asking will merit matter?

So, can I plan my life here in this country? So for instance, when we look at the Western Balkans, there is a low confidence to the system, and it is almost the same for all of these three geographies. [00:09:00] And as you also shared with our audience, another important driver is the normalization of leaving the country in the youth discourse because in interviews, people described emigration as the natural step of young people after graduation.

Vocational schools for nurses, for example, are effectively training for the EU labor market because that's where jobs and recognition are. And for sure we also, I mean, we also met some concerns about security worries of young people in particular for the regions, very prone, with proximity to the war and conflict.

Samir maybe would like to continue from here.

Samir: Exactly. Just to continue on this security, securitization part.This has been especially noticeable in our interviews with youth experts, youth leaders from the Western Balkan region, and especially,since the start of the Russian aggression on Ukraine, where many of young people, you know, kind of the wounds from [00:10:00] the war are still fresh, and in the Western Balkans in two different ways. In one way, you know, the war is, like, less than three decades away in Kosovo, even less, and then in addition to that, there is a constant fear or constant rhetorics of war still being present in the media, in the political discourse and in education as well.

.

Samir: And generally speaking, when it comes to this kind of expectation that young people are going to leave the country and we are speaking here about leaving brain drain is leaving without kind of necessary intention to return in foreseeable future. We're also here considering this kind of expectation from the society and from the environment of those young people, because oftentimes those young people who leave are considered to be successful.

So there is also a certain stigma or a certain pressure, peer pressure on young people to leave and equally so those young people who leave and return are considered oftentimes as in a way, a failure, that [00:11:00] they failed, that they did not succeed in a promised land. So they had to return back from where they came from.

So this is also something kind of engraved in the current situation. At least, this is what we got from our interviews with experts during our research as well. So, in a way it is expected from young people to leave.

Oftentimes they're also not leaving only alone. They're also taking their families with them. And usually those are young families. You know, those are families that, that are potent in a way that can also deliver children at the end of the day. So there is also this very important demographic aspect of who is going to build the societies, in this case, of these three geographies.

But also in addition to that,there is a lot of these young families that are, you know, delivering children,and working abroad. And this is, again, it's a brain gain for those countries, but also long-term perspective. These countries are winning not only brain-wise, but also population-wise.

Gokay: Yeah. And in addition to Samir, I would like to add that another important factor is skill [00:12:00] mismatch, because many of the young people in these geographies, they have the feeling that their education is not valued by the system. What does it mean? For instance, PhDs, master graduate they're obliged to work mostly in entry level roles.

Doctors, engineers, they feel that their training won't translate into a decent life at home. So that gap between education and real jobs is a consistent trigger for many of the young people in these geographies.

Dariusz: Thank you. This naturally leads to a lot of consequences. I mean, some of them we can already say probably also without reading your report, because immediately what comes to my head is the, is the demographic issues. What you also write about in your, in your paper aging society and loss of human capital and labor market imbalance.

These are the things that probably are there, and they probably would happen in any society that is losing their citizens, leaving somewhere. But what are the consequences for, I would like to concentrate [00:13:00] more on the youth themselves and also the youth sector itself. So what consequences are there?

Samir: So for the youth sector, there are really tangible consequences in terms of what is happening to youth organizations on the field, on the ground, especially to local youth organizations from smaller communities and especially from rural areas. So if we speak about rural areas and local communities, which are not kind of big urban centers with universities present there, we have such a situation where already young people are moving from these smaller cities to bigger university centers. However, when it comes to young people leaving, we do have a situation where youth, local organizations are struggling with operating and working at all because they don't have simply workforce.

And we have situations where we spoke to youth experts who said, as soon as we kind of recruit new project managers, project assistants, youth workers in our youth organizations, [00:14:00] if they don't go to university, they go abroad. So we need to invest time, money, resources to recruit new ones.

And oftentimes we don't have anyone to recruit. So we cannot even implement our youth project. So brain drain is, if you wish, not even indirectly, but in this case directly affecting youth work on the ground. Especially in smaller local communities, but also in the capital cities where, youth NGOs are not able to perform their duties and their work, becauseyoung people leaving, and this is especially evident for the Western Balkans in all in good cases, also for Eastern partnershipcountries.

Gokay: Yeah, and also, I mean, as you also shared with us aging, loss of human capital, economic imbalances in the employment market, these are the well-known consequences of the brain drain. But in our study with Samir, we also emphasized another consequence under the structure of the resentful youth, it means that there is a, there is [00:15:00] an important resentment and disengagement among young populations in these geographies.

Why? Because some, some young people want to leave their countries, but they cannot achieve in return. Some of young people, they achieve to live in another country by the migration, but when they go there mostly they, again, meet with the situation of skilled mismatch because they have to work underskilled jobs abroad.

So this is anotherinvisible consequence of the youth brain drain.

Dariusz: I think this resentful youth is very interesting, 'cause I can imagine there is a lot of frustration from this fact. Reduced motivation actually to even to do whatever to participate.

So it also has a very direct influence on youth work, on youth participation and so on. Okay. Before we talk about your proposals on how to tackle those issues because, they seem like a very big things, a lot of them, you know, and they are very big things, so they probably required a lot of systemic approaches, [00:16:00] which are not easy.

We all know about it. But before that you also mentioned, the brain circulation as another concept. If you can explain it a little bit, what is it, because you talk about in your report that this is the idea how to transform youth brain drain, so it should be transformed into brain circulation.

What is it?

Samir: Maybe I can start to explain, I mean based on the answers of the previous questions, because one of the things that we, emphasized in our study is this is something that can be achieved and sold or managed by intersectoral cooperation. So what makes our study very interesting and also, let's say, different than the other studies on youth brain drain is we have a special emphasis on youth sector. However, we underline the youth sector alone cannot achieve everything or manage the process, but only be helpful by cooperation with the other [00:17:00] sectors such as business, other civil society groups, and also for sure business and companies and brain circulation is another dimension of the brain drain and when we are doing our analysis, we met really good examples. For instance, one of the good ones is related to foreign funded programs that support local businesses, community engagement and student skills. And we witnessed that these sort of programs always show positive results if they are structured with intersectoral cooperation.

Gokay: Another thing is mobility with reentry, for instance, like we gave the example of previous Future Capital Program, which provides people, young people to do something in their homeland when they return. So when there are some opportunities for young people when they have an opportunity to return their countries, it also sometimes works.

And also we mentioned about diaspora, [00:18:00] knowledge networks, merit-based recruitment and formal diaspora knowledge channels. And in some geographies and countries, this also works very efficiently.

Samir: And just to add maybe on this, WE should not put a burden on the youth sector to solve this issue. Youth sector didn't cause this issue. It's a systemic problem that governments should resolve it in cooperation with economic sector, so to speak.

However, brain circulation, I see it and we have seen it on the ground through our interviews that it is one of the most impactful migration models because it allows both the migrants and host and home countries to prosper. How? Those young people who study at their home country, who let's say cannot find work, would go abroad and work, collect experience, collect context, collect skills, knowledge for certain number of years.

In one moment they would return home and bring all of these skills, knowledge, contacts back to their home country, and then their home country would prosper for that. [00:19:00] However, in order for that to happen, there are prerequisites and these prerequisites focus on attracting those young people from abroad and they, this is, countries in these geographies should not be reinventing the wheel, there are talent schemes that many other countries throughout the world have managed to implement in order to attract those people. So, this would be something to expand on in the next, in the next years, in the next decades, because this is one of the ways how to curb brain drain and how to prevent its consequences that we already see in many of these countries.

Dariusz: Yeah. Thank you. maybe we end up with,what are the, what should be the policy responses, when it comes to addressing the issues we talked about, a little bit about the brain circulation, but as you mentioned, some systemic approaches are needed as well.

So what should be those policy responses in order to address these issues?

Gokay: Beyond specific policies, perhaps we can start with an important, let's say, initiative that which is quite necessary to manage this [00:20:00] process. Trust, ties and belonging. I mean, our study showed that when we have done our interviews with the experts, they always refer one important point. All of the initiatives and policy responses, first of all, should restructure the trust and alignment of the engagement of the young people to these countries again. So this can be an important point of departure, with Samir, we put several proposals for youth organizations to do something. For instance, bringing young people into local decision making processes, strengthen leadership civic skills, political participation, but as also Samir underlined, it is not something can be achieved only by the youth sector, so government and state support is quite important. Also, targeted scholarships, talent frameworks, entrepreneurship programs. They can be also helpful in order to manage this process and provide a new [00:21:00] perspective for the young people who are involved in

brain drain processes. Particularly in our study we also refer to the non-formal education and its importance because tailor upskilling to actual demand, so co-designing curricula with employers. Keeping mobility as an important learning tool. These are all the things that youth sector has been talking about for long years and doing something.

So this can be an important, let's say, powerful tool to manage the youth brain drain in these geographies and to provide the positive feedback for the resource countries.

Samir: Not to repeat what Gokay said, we also saw, and I'll be very short on this, that as a prerequisite for everything there should be political willingness to do this, because many of these, many of these policy proposals and kind of roadmaps solutions have been already presented to politicians in, in these geographies.

In a lot of cases, governments, politicians of several [00:22:00] of these countries, of many countries do not even recognize the fact that young people are leaving, because ignoring this fact means, means that the problem doesn't exist. However, closing eyes or hiding behind of the problem or pushing the problems under the carpet will not make those problems disappear.

They're going to stay there. They remain there, and in several years, down the line, they're going to explode. So in this sense, what we need are actuallypolicy makers who are aware, who are ready and willing to, you know, kind of tackle these issues with probably measures that will not be necessarily popular, but highly needed.

Because if we do not tackle them now, they are going to return as a boomerang in, in a much uglier face, if many of them have not done so already now.

Dariusz: Thank you. So yeah, recognizing the problem is the first step to solve it, actually, like in well, many domains. Thank you, Samir. Thank you, Gokay.

That's all for today's episode of Under 30, our [00:23:00] podcast. If you'd like to dive deeper into this topic, the full publication Youth Brain Drain from the Western Balkans, the Easter Partnership in Türkiye is available for download on the EU Council of Europe Youth Partnership website.

Thanks for listening, and join us next time on Under 30.