Welcome to UNDER 30, the podcast series
by the youth partnership that brings

the research results, explores trends
in young people's lives and themes

relevant for youth policy and practice.

This is another episode in which we go
deeper into different topics explored in

the Youth Knowledge Book on Young People,
Social Inclusion and Digitalization.

This time, we look into two chapters
that discuss how digitalization

is affecting young people's
mental health and wellbeing.

Our guest, Kathy Street, wrote a
chapter in which she looks into young

people's digital wellbeing, outlining
current research findings about both

positive and negative effects of
digitalization, including problematic

or excessive use of technology and
some theories behind these findings.

Ursula Curven, our second guest, wrote
an article in which she explores how

young people who are marginalized and
isolated can feel supported through the

use of peer chat media, such as Yik Yak,
social media app that enabled people

to post anonymously in short message
format, similar to a text or Twitter.

My name is Dariusz Grzemny and
together with Lana Pasic from

the EU-Council of Europe youth
partnership, we will be discussing

the topic of young people's mental
health and wellbeing with our guests.

Enjoy listening.

We are speaking today with Ursula Curven
and Cathy Street about their chapters in

the Knowledge Book on Social Inclusion,
Digitalization, and Young People.

And today we'll be exploring within this
topic - young people's mental health

and wellbeing within digital spaces.

So first I'd like to ask Cathy maybe
to present her chapter where she

explored the impact of digitalization
and also some of the dangers of digital

spaces for young people's wellbeing.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

So I wrote this chapter with
two co-authors, who have done

extensive research in this field.

And what we do is to explore the context
of growing internet use and why we

now should be both recognizing the
benefits, but also some of the risks.

So we set the context of growing numbers
of young people who have an online

presence who own a smartphone, have a
tablet and use the Internet as a really

a main way of their social lives.

We then set out some of the research
and talk about the risks, but also the

benefits which we argue often get lost
in the concerns about contagion effects,

the Internet being harmful, encouraging
people to harm themselves, or do things

online that may put them at risk.

So we are very keen to say it's really
important that we look at the potential

and the benefits of this whole activity,
but that we need to understand a lot

more about its impact on how young people
communicate and that there are undoubtedly

risks that we need to be aware of.

So we set out in some detail, some of
the work that Adrienne Katz and Aiman

El Asam have done about how offline
vulnerabilities can increase online risk.

And who are those young people?

How do we help them?

And we also then explain how, what
we don't always understand is the

direction of the association between
online life and offline activity using

examples of depression, anxiety, some
of the big studies that the OSCED,

WHO and other bodies have done.

And so that is very much the bulk of
our chapter is trying to help people to

understand that research and to think
about what that means as a youth worker

or somebody working with young people.

We then talk about how there's been
an enormous growth of things like

e-therapies, computerized treatments,
access to information and how wonderful

digitalization could be in helping
young people who might be isolated or

live in rural areas, or just not have
services that can easily get to, how it

can really empower them to get in touch
with other people to take control of

their health, to access good information.

And then the final sections of the chapter
set out, well, how do we move forward?

What do we need to do here?

We talk about the research
that needs to happen.

The things that are emerging and our
thoughts on, you know, where things

may need to be developed further.

And we draw across Europe to look
at some of the things that countries

are doing to make standards.

For example, about age appropriate
content, online safety, and I think

our final message is that we need to
modernize the way we think about this,

that this needs a subtle approach,
just rules and regulations is not

the way that we need to recognize
the benefits as well as the risks.

Thank you, Cathy.

In your chapter, you also mentioned
a term problematic internet behavior

or kind of problematic internet use.

Can you tell us a little
bit more about what that is?

Well, this is where we draw out some
of the literature about how there

are benefits, but there are risks.

And some of the research has talked
about excessive internet use or addictive

internet use, which could be anything
that basically is taking over a young

person's life to the point that they are
not engaging in normal social activities.

The research tells us that lots of
young people are on the internet

for at least 20 hours a week.

And that's probably in
the moderate category.

What we're talking about with
the problematic is where it's

taken over from everything else.

But this again is where we get into
the debate about, is it that that's the

problem or is it the context behind the
young person that's actually the problem.

So for example, if a young person is
socially isolated, is depressed and

anxious, they may be using the internet as
a way of trying to deal with those things.

Quite positively.

And they may get access to help
and advice and information, and

they may boost their self esteem.

Alternatively, they may get
into just picking up on negative

feedback from peers, unhelpful
comparisons with other young people.

We talk about a theory that's quite
widely mentioned in the research

about fear of missing out F O M O.

And that actually, if that becomes
the driving force behind young people

just accessing the internet, they
are going to get into what we would

term the problematic use, where
it's actually not helping them.

It's just driving and exacerbating
all that anxiety and depression that

led them there in the first place.

Thanks, Cathy.

And, Ursula covers in her chapter one of
the examples of these platforms, Yik Yak,

which is, I understand no longer in use.

And, she also touches upon this kind of
problematic internet behaviors and some of

the anxiety that the platforms may cause.

So Ursula if you can tell us
what is Yik Yak and how did it

affect the young people's lives?

Yeah, what was Yik Yak.

So it was an anonymous
communication platform.

So we think about, um, WhatsApp or
something like Facebook messaging and

people can see who they're talking to.

They can only access it if they have
a direct contact with that individual,

with YikYak, we had to do with sign on.

So it didn't record a name.

It didn't necessarily record a location,
although it was possible to track

that down and various research has
been done around tracking that down.

What it allowed was for, um, a symbol,
the green tent, a pink balloon, a

mushroom to appear that was your
symbol during the conversation.

If you logged off and log back on
again, you get a different symbol.

So it was impossible in a sense
to track who was talking to whom.

Which the young people, and it
was aimed largely at students.

So, um, centers for of the universities
or colleges or anything like that.

Um, so it was aimed at students
and they tended to use it.

And I've looked at students all around
the world to chat about all the things

that all the young people normally.

So yes, sex, drugs, rock and roll, all
the things you might expect, but also

to speak with each other about, well,
I'm homesick or I'm struggling with this

essay, or how do I find out what time
the laundrette or the library is open?

My focus in the work I've done is
around how we can use these anonymous

apps to support young people.

So the idea being, I worked
alongside the campus they're called

security team, but in reality,
they're, um, they're more than that.

There are support teams as well, uh,
and looked at their recordings alongside

data that I pulled from the app to see
if there was any correlation between the

incidents talked about on the app and the
incidents dealt with by a security force

as it happened, there was some overlap.

I couldn't absolutely say one was
definitely the other, obviously,

cause it's all anonymous.

Um, but apart from young people
engaging in some dubious behavior,

as I said, sex, drugs, rock and roll.

Mostly what they wanted
to do was help each other.

I am there for you.

Yeah.

Tell me about it.

I suffer with that too.

And it was really a really positive
experience to watch this unfold.

It was really interesting for us,
recently we recorded the podcast on

virtual communities and how young
people, young migrants, and young

refugees connect with each other, using
digital spaces and different tools.

The digital media is more used by young
people for the purposes of this support

and connecting and really trying to
find the spaces that can serve as a

kind of a network online, but also
kind of anonymous network where they

can speak about different topics.

But in cases where these networks
might not have such positive effects or

positive impact on young people, are there
any support channels, so networks where

young people can actually reach out and
try to find help if they experienced

kind of anxiety or bullying or any kind
of negative content in online spaces.

I think that's a really important issue.

And it's one of the things that
we talk about in the chapter.

And certainly from the work that
I have done with Adrienne, when we

were looking across a number of areas
of England, about why young people

were getting into difficulty online,
one of the things that we were very

struck by was how uncomfortable many
people working with children and young

people are about this whole area that
they feel they don't understand it.

And that the temptation to just try and
clamp down on it and take away a young

person's phone or confiscate their tablet
was often their first line of response.

And so one of the things that we
were talking about was actually

that just pushes it underground.

And makes the problem worse and you
don't actually then have any chance

of finding out what's happening.

So that one of the things we need
to think about is how we empower the

people who work with young people to
be more confident, to shift away from

this sort of punitive, as I say, make
the regulations and clamp down on it

to a much more empowering young people
themselves to understand how to use this

sort of medium safely, but also that they
can then go to professionals if they've

hit some sort of problem who have the
knowledge about where to redirect them to.

So that's what we mean about
modernizing thinking that we

need to shift the culture here.

Yes, we do need standards and we do need
regulations and there's all sorts of

things going on in the UK government at
the moment and other countries about that.

But we need much more of an open culture
to talking about this and recognizing,

as I say, the benefits, not just the
harms, but making it so that young people

feel it's okay to go and say, look,
I've got into trouble with this site.

I don't know how get off it, or they're
constantly battering me with messages.

What do I do?

But also that we need to know
what the good places are, which

constantly change as well.

They go on and offline and change.

So it's that whole culture of being
able to talk about this and to

recognize the benefits, recognize the
fun, recognize that this is, this is

life rather than the, oh no, you can't
do that and I'm taking your phone

away and you're grounded for a week.

Yeah.

What I was going to say is one of the
things about anonymous communication

we discovered was that the type of
discussions that were held would

vary according to the time of day.

So the fact that a support office or
a worker is around between nine in the

morning and nine at night, depending
on what the situation is, doesn't

always mean that that's when the young
people want to have that conversation.

And I'm speaking to someone who
was waking up at three or four

in the morning to collect data.

Uh, the conversations were very
different and very much more raw and

open at three and four in the morning.

Um, so I think there's also something
there about having support workers

available, even if they're peer workers.

So we have a mentoring scheme which
trains students to support other students.

Now I'm not suggesting we should
encourage students to be open at

three and four in the morning till
listen to other people's problems.

But I do think that if young people are
aware of where they can point other young

people to during office hours as it were,
then we're in a better situation as well.

So I agree entirely with Cathy it's around
educating workers who can then educate

young people to better support themselves.

I I'm very happy that you are talking
actually about the positive role of the

internet in the lives of young people,
talking about support, talking about

all the benefits that young people
take from the use of the internet.

And maybe I will ask something that
goes a little bit beyond your paper,

but I think that I have this reflection
sometimes that the narrative about

the internet use of young people
is really full of stereotypes.

And very often among people who
are actually working with young

people, like teachers in school or
youth workers even, and parents.

I was thinking, is there a way to
actually change this narrative, or

how to change this narrative about
the internet use of young people.

Well, as I say, I think for me, some
of it comes down to training people,

training staff, providing that as
a part and parcel of what they do.

And certainly if they're going to
be providing E-therapies, they're

going to need to be able to use the
internet and do things like that.

So that's one part of it.

But I think the other piece of it is if
you look at the media, if you look at

what's in the papers and things, it's
always the scare stories, the contagion

that caused a load of young people
to self harm and things like that.

So we need much more positive media
awareness about the benefits about

the promotion of sites that are there,
that are doing really great things.

I mean, I've done a lot of work in
the UK with Kooth who provide lots of

online counseling services in schools.

And across other settings.

And again, you know, how many people
actually know it, that they hear about

the awful rates and rises in self-harm
and mental health rates are going

through the roof and services are
unable to cope and this and that, but

they ever mentioned in the same way.

That there are these
brilliant online services.

No, they don't.

And most of what you've read about
online digital social media, I

think comes over it's very negative.

It seems to show that young people
are doing all these things that they

really shouldn't be doing online,
where they should be studying,

or they should be going out.

They don't see the enormous support value.

And that is for some young people,
you know, they meet new friends, they

learn new skills, they become much
more able to navigate their way through

information, the communication skills
they learned, none of that comes out.

So I think there's a real role here.

A bit like we've tried to tackle mental
health stigma with campaigns and adverts,

and really to opening the conversation
up to, you know, something like that

around digital, in young people's lives.

And that's not to say we shouldn't talk
about the risks or the regulations,

but it needs to be much more balanced.

And at the moment, I think it's, it's
not, it's very skewed towards online harm,

or we should shut this awful site down.

So it's a shift that needs to happen.

And I think a lot of this is also
goes back to what I was saying

earlier about the lack of confidence
in adults to acknowledge that

this is something that is here.

I think a lot of adults, as I say, feel,
it's almost like they're losing control.

Um, and again, I think that's a very
difficult thing for some people to accept.

So it's a shift.

I would agree with what
you're saying there, Cathy.

I think also it's a lot of organizations,
as you say, are only aware of the

mainstream sites, if you will, Twitter,
Facebook, or that kind of thing.

But I think the control
element is the absolute key.

If we can't control it, they
must be doing something in there

that we, we don't want to do.

What frightens me about it is that in
all this focus in keeping people safe

online we've perhaps lost the idea of
keeping people safe in real life as well.

So yes, you might find, as I've seen,
two 16 year old sitting next to each

other, texting to each other, rather than
having a conversation, but what can we

do to facilitate those skills that allow
them to interact safely in real life?

Because they're much more likely to
be playing an online game and shouting

kill, kill, come on, round the left
flank and all this kind of thing then

that actually sit in there, chatting
about, whatever it is, music, books.

Do people read books anymore?

It's a difficult thing to manage, but
I think we need to hit that balance

between real life and online life.

Which again, Cathy goes back
to what you were saying.

Ursula you close your chapter
with the question should we

monitor young people online.

I think this also raises a lot
of ethical concerns and questions

that you spoke about earlier.

So would you like to
reflect on that a bit?

I do think it's difficult
and to be honest, it was very

challenging to get this piece
of work through research ethics.

I think there are issues in any
kind of participant observation.

So if you're watching people, even if
you watching them in the street, without

them knowing that you're watching them,
then you have to be really careful.

What Yik Yak did as an app was it made
very clear that anything that was posted

to it became public property, which
is how I was able to collect data.

There were of course private chat rooms.

So people could, if they wanted to
take it into a private room, I then

couldn't see what was going on.

And that was fair enough.

I think as adults watching young people
online, we can't be there 24 / 7.

In the same way we can't be there
24 / 7 in their everyday life.

What are they doing at school?

What are they doing when
they're out on the street?

So I think we have to be realistic
about it as well, but I think attempting

to watch everybody all the time will
be enough to drive people insane.

We hear stories about people mediating
various chat services who have, and video

services who've had to deal with so much
violence, pornography, just obnoxious

stuff that it's driven them mad.

So I think we need to be
careful about that as well.

We need to trust young people.

If we're working with, if we're talking
to young people and our behavior as adults

shows them what it is to be reasonable,
to behave in a thoughtful way, then

surely they should take that on board.

They will take that on board.

If as adults, we are not able to behave
in that reasoned and thoughtful way,

and you only have to look at certain,
highly influential adults, I should

mention no names, who go online and
do all the things that you might

equally accuse a teenager or a child.

So they're sort of
keyboard warrior by day.

It's very, very difficult.

I think if we model reasonable
behavior, we will expect to

see a reasonable behavior.

Thank you.

And Cathy, you reflect in your chapter
on implications of digital use for youth

policy and youth work practice as well
as kind of some of the necessary research

that still should be done on this.

So what is it that youth work and youth
policy should take from your findings?

Okay.

So at the end of the chapter,
we talk through some of the

big sort of policy directives.

We talk about the United Convention
on the Rights of the Child who we're

going to put a comment about digital
rights in their work, as a way of

trying to highlight that there is a
right to a digital life in all of this.

So how do we make that safe?

And we run through very briefly some
of the things that affect everything,

not just young people, so GDPR laws,
the regulations around online safety,

and the real attention to trying to
make sure that harmful content for

anybody is just not allowed to be
left up without it being addressed.

But I think what we go back to is,
again, this whole issue of awareness.

And how do we help young people in
particular, to be aware of their rights

to an online life, but also to not be
subjected to breaches of their data

being shared that they have a right
to confidentiality, that if there are

things that they are accessing that
are causing distress where are the

routes where they can report that back?

So we, I mean, I'm not going to
pretend this was exhaustive because

it's actually quite difficult to find
information about what is going on.

Because I guess a sense that there's a
lot of talk, but not necessarily a lot of

follow through in policy aimed at really
the empowerment end of things, that an

awful lot of the activity has been faced
still at the moment on the regulation end.

So our call is very much to that need to
really inform people, support people, to

become empowered, to use this safely aided
by governments, taking this seriously and

putting in place an infrastructure that
is able to deal with the harmful aspects,

much more rapidly, much more consistently,
and in a way that people understand,

rather than it being a sense of things,
just being taken away and hidden.

The only thing that I would add to that is
something that I mentioned in the chapter,

which is if we're removing funding for
face to face interactions and for youth

centers from young people, then we must
expect them to go away and meet somewhere.

And that somewhere is cyberspace.

So let's, let's put some
funding into actually having

young people meet face-to-face.

I would absolutely support that
100% because for me, the concern

has been that again, what you see is
the push to e-therapies and things

like that is seen as a cheap option.

And we cannot see that
as, as the way forward.

Yes.

It's a great thing to offer, but it has
to be on a par with, as Ursula just said,

the importance of having the face-to-face
services that are there and able to

offer young people that sort of contact.

And one thing I didn't mention earlier,
but my research in this area has

indicated a lot of young people may
use the internet as a way of a warmup

and a tryout to see what shall I do if
I go to see a doctor or a psychologist

and that again, this is where we
need what Darek was talking about.

We need the join up that it's
not just offline online as though

these are two parallel universes.

They need to join up and we need to
recognize the impact of one on the other,

but it certainly can't be seen as the
cheap, quick solution to failing to fund

children's services in the first place.

Thank you, Cathy.

Thank you, Ursula.

I'm very happy that we finished with this
statement because I think that it has to

be repeated all the time that there is no
virtual world, that there is a world where

we live and the part of it is offline.

Part of it's online, but it's the
same world we actually do almost

the same things here and there now.

So there's no really different, especially
for the, in the lives of young people.

I think there is no difference
in the online and the offline.

So yeah, we need this kind of change of
thinking and perceiving the internet.

Not always as the evil
but as a part of our life.

That's that's it.

Thank you again.

We are promoting the book
all the time in our podcast.

This is the third podcast about the book.

So if you are interested in Ursula's
and Cathy's chapters - it's chapter

eight and chapter 10 in the book.

And, uh, thank you for listening.

Bye bye.

And soon there is another episode
about other chapters in the book.