Quality tools in practice
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[00:00:00] Ismael: Hello, everyone. And welcome to Under 30 a podcast brought to you by the partnership between the European Commission and the council of Europe in the field of youth, I'm Ismael Paez Civico and together with Lana Pasic we'll be hosting this episode. We hope you enjoy.

[00:00:38] Lana: Today, we're talking about learning mobility at the partnership we coordinate the platform called European platform on learning mobility, EPLM. And as a part of, uh, the work of promoting learning mobility, we are also talking about three important topics, quality, sustainability, and community impact.

[00:00:59] Lana: Today [00:01:00] in this podcast, we are focusing on quality in learning mobility. Why is it important? How to make sure that your projects and activities are following certain quality standards, how they can be adjusted to your context and what are the things you should be aware of when talking about quality? Today with us we have Marta and Darko who are experienced, uh, trainers, facilitators, practitioners, uh, and also, uh, users of quality tools.

[00:01:30] Lana: So welcome to both of you. Can you maybe introduce yourself Marta?

[00:01:36] Marta: Uh, so my name is Marta and I'm a freelance trainer and facilitator. Uh, so for many, many years I've been part of, uh, training pools, uh, connected, very strongly with, uh, learning mobility. So. Uh, European solidarity core pool of trainers in Poland and you fit work [00:02:00] twins pool, and also some other, um, teams in which we, uh, can you design implement and evaluate training and trainings and other learning, uh, activities, uh, for individual participants and also for organizations.

[00:02:21] Darko: Hello everyone. My name is Darko Mitevski. . I'm originally Macedonian now, living and working in Germany. I'm president of Natur Kultur, an NGO. It's a youth organization that is working in the Northwest of Germany, where, um, organization is providing youth opportunities for youngsters from 13 to 30, um, in the. Area of, uh, youth exchanges, training courses, um, European solidarity corps and other volunteering programs.

[00:02:58] Darko: Uh, we have like, uh, a lot of [00:03:00] local activities and other, other things. Um, I'm as well for very long time in youth work, I started as a youngster, um, maybe 20 years ago or something like this. Um, and since then have been part of like various organizations. Uh, trainer and facilitator on international level founder of the trainers library, which is like a very large resource tool for, um, education of trainers and youth workers on European level.

[00:03:32] Darko: At the moment I'm writing book reviews for the European journal of social work and probably few other , few other roles.

[00:03:42] Ismael: Thank you very much, both of you for those introductions, that I'm actually quite glad that we have the diversity of professional background let's say. Because like we just spoke about before a bit more of a complementation between both of your inputs, uh, in terms of the content we are going to discuss right now.

[00:03:56] Ismael: And just to kick it off a bit with a very, very general question. Um, I'm [00:04:00] wondering how you experienced in, let's say the restart of the learning mobility, and then we can start linking it with the tools that we're going to speak about just in a bit, Marta if you would like to start with the very general topic and then we can get more into the detail.

[00:04:14] Marta: Okay. So actually, um, yes, I'm restarting in person meeting, but, uh, even during the lockdown, I was very actively involved in let's say visual learning mobility, or just in, um, trainings and workshops that were supporting, uh, the learning mobility that we're taking part, despite a pandemic, uh, which was mainly a European.

[00:04:40] Marta: solidarity corps activity. And it's true that it was demanding, but at the same time, I think a lot of trainers and facilitators, uh, where programs managed to, uh, to create a very interactive and effective [00:05:00] activities online at the same time. I, um, I can see. Uh, having the possibility to meet people and to come back to a residential trainings, how important it is to meet in person and all these added value of people meeting and having, uh, the possibility to, you know, experience with all the senses.

[00:05:25] Marta: Both the human interaction, but also for me, as intercultural trainers. It's very important that you can really feel different, uh, different, uh, cultural elements as well, that are all around. So, uh, for me, it's a say a huge celebration, the restart of, uh, the, this, uh, unique dimension, human dimension of learning, and also from.

[00:05:53] Marta: Another perspective me as a learner. Uh, I also had already a few 10, like [00:06:00] a few occasions to, to go and to meet other, uh, trainers and to, to, to reconnect, to work on a new project and the same time to, uh, take part in some conferences in which I can improve. My skills and also get new perspectives and it was very enjoyable and enriching experience.

[00:06:22] Marta: So I'm definitely very happy that uh, it's uh, it's going already, uh, not only virtually, which I also, as I said, I also, uh, like a lot and I believe it's very beneficial and. At the same time physical mobility right now is something that's not only me, but a lot of people need.

[00:06:48] Ismael: Darko, I will pass on now the word on to you.

[00:06:51] Ismael: And maybe you have anything else to add because you are also very involved on the peer to peer let's say communication and mobility with other young people with your organization. So [00:07:00] what is your perspective, let's say on that, on that restarting of learning mobility.

[00:07:05] Darko: Yeah. So, um, we were quite severely impacted by the Corona pandemic business here.

[00:07:11] Darko: So let's say like, we came like to one moment to a full stop of not doing any activities, like for like several months. The lockdown in Germany, like lasted quite long. And it had the impact, not just on the young people of, of kind of like not having opportunities and not on teenagers with their lives and development, but also kind of like all of the systems that were built through the years, like with employees, with, um, budgets with, with processes, like they all got disrupted.

[00:07:40] Darko: So it took a while to be sincere. Like it took a lot of effort to kind of, um, come back on our feet. Um, the financial damages were, were, were quite severe. There were people who left the organization. Um, there are people who left in completely youth work and they went in, in other fields. And then [00:08:00] the young people also kind of like, um, in a way disconnected from the, from the organization.

[00:08:05] Darko: So, um, we need that to start from the very beginning we needed to start like small, uh, it was like last august. It was the first project camping project where, uh, on OpenAir like with all of these hygiene rules, um, we found a way together with all of our partners, with the young people, with everyone together, basically, how can we organize a project within Corona times?

[00:08:31] Darko: Um, and then from then on, we took it as a learning experience, like kind of building on this momentum. Step-by-step like how to implement hygiene standards, how to implement, um, this plug and play. Uh, uh, projects where in a very short time, we can set up like an activity for young people and I'm going to implement.

[00:08:51] Darko: So I'm also very much looking forward. Like we're like in full swing. I have to say like, like things are looking quite well. Um, we have like one or [00:09:00] two activities per month at the moment with all of the safety and hygiene protocols being implemented. So. The corona, we survived the pandemic, and now we can maybe kind of build and share our experiences.

[00:09:14] Lana: Thank you Darko

[00:09:15] Lana: both of you mentioned that, you know, slowly we are coming back to doing the activities in person. And also reminding ourselves of how youth work face to face actually works. And how can we start implementing activities again, uh, and learning together and also working together and working with young people.

[00:09:38] Lana: And now that we are coming back into this. In a face-to-face format. What are some of the things that we need to consider? What do we need to remind ourselves of in terms of the quality of learning mobility projects? Yeah, maybe to rephrase, uh, what are the things that we need to consider in order to make sure that the new [00:10:00] projects that are now taking place post pandemic are actually of good quality that actually correspond to the needs of young people and that we are doing them in a way that are most beneficial for young people across Europe.

[00:10:15] Darko: Yeah. So, um, if we're observing kind of like research based, um, and, uh, Uh, data. So about like what happened, uh, in the pandemic with young people, like the numbers are quite, um, disturbing. So like, um, the latest research in the 27 countries in the European union shows that, um, the, um, the percentage of young people dealing with mental health issues is somewhere between 30 and 40%, uh, with anxiety, with stress, with, um, depression, uh, with, uh, different kinds of

[00:10:52] Darko: mental health challenge is something that we haven't experienced a few days ago. Uh, a report about the UK came out where [00:11:00] like more than 500,000 young people are waiting for mental health support. Um, and starting from there, like observing how severe the situation is. From our point, um, as, as youth workers.

[00:11:13] Darko: And like, what I know is the strategy of the German government is to do as many, uh, youth activities as possible, like to take the extras outside, um, to continue their learning, like, to, um, come back to some sense of normality where like they belong to different communities that they can exchange and they can interact with their peers.

[00:11:34] Darko: They can create. Continue with their lives because they're the most impacted by the, by the pandemic. And then it's not, it's not easy to take into consideration all of the, um, hygiene and safety protocols that are in every different country, especially for talking on European level. Each country has their own protocols.

[00:11:53] Darko: Each country has their own vaccination standards and what they accept them. Uh, combining all of these [00:12:00] things with the pedagogical part of the organizing activities, even if they're on local level, there are quite many challenges that influence the implementation of the activities. Therefore like we need kind of like a different mindset.

[00:12:15] Darko: We need a different approach where all of these things will be taken into consideration, especially the mental health of the young people as well of the youth workers, therefore like the quality or, um, some kind of standard operating procedures are needed to be set in place that will allow the youth organizations, the youth workers to navigate through this complex place.

[00:12:41] Darko: For example, like what happens if some of the participants are, are positive on COVID? How do we continue with the activities? Uh, talk it out with the rest of the participants. How do we, um, reached the, um, building of the group dynamics between the young people? How do [00:13:00] we continue with the project itself within this kind of complex surrounding, and then therefore, like, I think that we need to clearly identify set of operating procedures.

[00:13:11] Darko: Like. Maybe principals or indicators that are going to be driving us through this map. So, um, kind of, we will have different kinds of directions that we'll know what are the actions that we can take in certain situations and not reflect, and then kind of try to figure out what to do when the situation has happened.

[00:13:33] Darko: So this, this gives a totally different approach in how, how prepared. The youth organizations and the young people are to interact with each other. And in this complex environment

[00:13:46] Marta: As for me, I, I think that now it's a very important moment to sometimes even redefine what quality means, because before it was for many organizations, uh, I [00:14:00] also was working with, it was so natural that they organized learning mobility activities.

[00:14:04] Marta: And there was sometimes no space to have a break and to look from the distance, what works well, what can be improved and so on. And now since it's a colored, like a restart of activities, then it's even inter very much interconnected with taking a fresh look and, uh, to check. To come back to the needs, to the needs of young people, to the needs of community, to the needs of the organization.

[00:14:35] Marta: And, uh, very often it may happen that there is a possibility to take a new ways of doing things which are more effective or maybe more diverse or creative. And for sure, the starting point is the form of the activity, because now we just have so many different options with blended learning and, and, uh, and hybrid and [00:15:00] residential.

[00:15:00] Marta: So also, uh, there is a choice what, to what suits most, which part of the activity. Yeah. So it doesn't have to be just one, but on the other hand, I agree with Darko that young people with everything that they have experienced and have been experiencing, because there are still somethings happening in the world, uh, conflicts, uh, they are still, um, uh, difficult situations.

[00:15:24] Marta: So for sure, we live in a very demanding and unique times. So it's even more important from my perspective to focus on, uh, on the social competencies on wellbeing and to give them. So some, some space and some time to reconnect and to provide some support for sure.

[00:15:46] Darko: Yeah. I agree. Completely. What I want to add is kind of, I had the conversation with, um, a youngster, uh, two days ago saying I would like to participate in the activities, but I don't feel [00:16:00] ready because.

[00:16:01] Darko: I haven't been socializing for such a long time that it's not easy for me to be in a group with like 30 people. And then to be kind of active for 24 7 and things like this. And then this is the. The taking in consideration their needs and all like to kind of adjust all of the programs to adjust how we do the work based on their needs about the wellbeing.

[00:16:23] Darko: Kind of like to look deeper than just are you okay. And all that. So, because they wouldn't open up very quickly with what kind of struggles and challenges they have. And then for this, we need time. We need patience. We need the resources. We are not psychologists. So we need to create platforms where they will feel safe

[00:16:43] Darko: to open up and to engage in activities or a lot in this Corona pandemic has been focused on, on the, on the digital skills of young people. But no one is talking about the digital safety about being aware of when they're addicted to the phone or when are [00:17:00] they, um, depending on their self image on the notifications and the likes that they get on Instagram.

[00:17:08] Darko: So we don't do enough in this part. And then. We need to together with the people kind of like review reconsider and kind of like reassess the needs of, of today and not like not what was like five years ago, not what will be in five years, but like the sit down, reassess the needs. And then, um, based on what comes out of these like, uh, honest conversations, What kind of adjust ourselves like to discuss with the institutions of how can they support us as youth workers?

[00:17:42] Darko: So we can engage with the, with the young people, according to their.

[00:17:46] Marta: Hmm, just one more thing that was so some advantages of that, uh, because people in organizations become more and more aware of, uh, of, uh, ecological costs, for example. And, uh, they [00:18:00] put more importance to sustainability when it comes to travel and, uh, also, uh, digital tools because they.

[00:18:08] Marta: Generate. Uh e-waste so there, there is more quality also in this, uh, area that where before maybe they were present, but they were somehow not the priority. And now they are also becoming priorities in the programs. And also there are some interconnections between them. So it's more and more visible. Yeah.

[00:18:28] Marta: Some of the learning mobilities are also concentrating, concentrated around these topics that are now very important for young people for, uh, for organizations, but also for the whole society. Yeah. So, um, this is, uh, one of the advantages. That now we can benefit

[00:18:46] Ismael:

[00:18:46] Ismael:

[00:18:46] Ismael: I'm very glad to hear on a, on both of your sides specifically when this whole line of questioning that happened when the pandemic hit and the following lockdowns and everything, and not just with both your experiences from what I'm hearing, but in the whole sector [00:19:00] overall.

[00:19:00] Ismael: And of course that we spoke a lot about the, what are the current needs of young people, but from what I'm seeing. For better or for worse, COVID actually has adapted a kind of resilience in the youth sector in, in most of its ways, because now we actually know how to adapt consequently, in for instance, now what happened with COVID and following, that question is what can be like a concrete example of general good practices or good protocols.

[00:19:22] Ismael: We can maybe speak about the digitalization of learning mobility tools and youth work in a more general manner. Uh, but Darko you spoke now like you had quite a few interactions recently with young people. And what can, what is your perspective let's say, or what have you done to adapt to those current needs that young people do have a following the psychological impact that the pandemic had in these past few years

[00:19:45] Darko:

[00:19:45] Darko: Very good question. So this is not kind of like very quick adjustment that we can do. It is like, it requires expertise. It requires know how like steering of our activities, like the, that there are good sides out of the pandemic. So kind of [00:20:00] like the, I, I think the effectiveness of the whole sector has risen. I know, like with all of these zoom meetings, like there, there is no need of in-person coordination.

[00:20:10] Darko: The coordination with partner organizations with different actors goes like much easier, much quicker, much more effective. But on another side, kind of all of these challenges that have happened are not easy to tackle. So what happened in Germany, which kind of enabled us? I think this was the kind of this deciding factor of, of do we continue with the activities or not?

[00:20:34] Darko: Is the. The full dedication from the institutions to support us in the process. So what the German government did, like they co-financed all of our activities in order to cover the loss, as in order to have additional people that are going to kind of engage with the young people because like all of these activities were disrupted and we needed to figure out ways and.

[00:20:57] Darko: There was trust from the side of the [00:21:00] government to recognize the increased cost, increased need for additional staff or additional personnel to kind of like, like, like think of a, a way of how to rebuild together and to restart. And then here I see. Increased capacity in, in the youth organizations, here's where the quality comes from and all that your work is four years working on, on verge of resources.

[00:21:24] Darko: You know, like if you look at what percentage of the gross domestic product of, of countries is being invested into youth work is minor.. You're not like if you look at local governments, what kind of money do they invest for the young people? Although there are 30% of the population they're investing 0.1% of their budgets, 0.5% of their budgets.

[00:21:45] Darko: So like we need kind of like a global consensus on what does it mean quality and, uh, what, what do the youth organizations need in order to provide a quality experience for them? And then this has already started, like this [00:22:00] processes are like with the third, uh, European youth work convention with the bone process, with all of this global or European, mostly, um, processes that we go into that direction.

[00:22:13] Darko: But like, we need a stronger commitment we need, um, um, to enable the youth organizations to provide. Uh, much, much more and much better quality, uh, activities for the young people. Regardless if it's on, on, on local national or international

[00:22:33] Marta: level, it can just only add from my side also this perspective of trainers and facilitators and mentors and all the people that were involved in education.

[00:22:42] Marta: That, uh, as I already mentioned that despite putting pandemic locked down, uh, we. The youth field digital learning mobility. Let's call it like this. I, from my perspective, it was very quick when we actually restart it, but in the digital form. So [00:23:00] when a lockdown started already in the age end of March, 2020, I was running trainings for AC volunteers online, uh, with my, with my colleagues and also a lot of other workshops conferences.

[00:23:14] Marta: Also this massive online open courses for the youth workers and young people were put in practice and the quality was improving. Like it was instant proof of quality with new tools, new platforms and new options, and also young people and youth workers getting used to this kind of work. And sometimes it was also not only sitting in front of the computer because we've, a synchronous learning.

[00:23:43] Marta: Implement some activities that could be done, uh, you know, in your local community with communication with other members of organizations. And so once I would like also to, to stress that stress, that, that, from my perspective is educational [00:24:00] team of all people involved in education of young people, non formal education in the European union.

[00:24:06] Marta: It was really much, uh, involved and active and also I can refer it to, uh, to the tools, the quality tools when we talk about quality and we have the co-op and the handbook, since there are, uh, digital, especially co-op they might have been, we could use. Uh, also, uh, in our trainings and other educational activities easily because people could just, um, connect and, and use them.

[00:24:37] Marta: And that's also very important that we have a lot of resources and materials that might be used both offline and online, depending on the possibilities and the context. At

[00:24:52] Ismael: this point, it really is up to both of you. Cause you actually mainly spoke about everything that we had in the general questions.

[00:24:57] Ismael: And if you have anything else that you would like to add, [00:25:00] please feel free to do

[00:25:01] Darko: so. Yeah. I would like to add something like I'm, I'm kind of like missing. The strategic push the strategic kind of support of the youth sector and all like, so a lot of words have been said, a lot of declarations have been made.

[00:25:18] Darko: A lot of council of ministers have this conclusions that are very strong, but I can't see in day-to-day operations, I can't see it in my daily work. Based like very strong support, like on the convention was like, like metaphorically said, there's wind in our backs. So, and this is something that I'm missing in terms of quality.

[00:25:41] Darko: Like I would like to see the tension that is being put on quality much, much stronger. I would like to see the resources that are being dedicated for different parts of the processes. Not just like resources for the organization. So they will have like more money to implement the activities, but to [00:26:00] kind of like to raise the expectations of, of what does it mean to have like a learning outcome, um, to kind of strengthen the human capacity, you know, like, so new roles and positions are appearing like in, in part of

[00:26:13] Darko: cOVID like, for example, like what we would like to have like a permanent supervision in youth work for our team and for the young people that are, so this is like important part of, of the quality that we're talking about or, um, to be able to reach out to different institutions, to reach out this non formal education.

[00:26:34] Darko: They all need a little bit more so in order to do our work, and this is what I would like to ask. So, because like, this is our platform, I would like to ask our lovely politicians and decision-makers to come to come in, to meet with us. And then to kind of like talk about what are our needs. Uh, vis-a-vis the needs of the young people.

[00:26:56] Darko: How has the, the environment changed? [00:27:00] How has the post pandemic life look these days and what can we together do for increasing the quality of youth work.

[00:27:10] Marta: Uh, hi. I agree so much. Uh, uh, I, I just wanted to say that there was so much quality in the work that youth workers and trainers have been doing, and there is a need for more recognition and the links is what's.

[00:27:28] Marta: Darko mentioned the links with the formal education. And fortunately, already we have such initiatives, for instance, Almost 12 years, I'm involved in the among others project in which we are giving workshops to students of education in the Polish universities, but also it's implemented in other countries.

[00:27:53] Marta: So, uh, we give workshops to students in the formal setting and it's to prepare them to work in [00:28:00] intercultural classroom, by using all our wisdom and, and methods that we have developed in non-formal education sector.

[00:28:09] Lana: Thank you both think we discussed, uh, quite a lot. The. Context, the challenging context that we experienced over the last two years and the need, and also the amazing ability of the youth sector to adapt, to be flexible, and also to use all the tools and guidelines that the car to increase the capacities of both youth workers and young people.

[00:28:33] Lana: And Darko also mentioned the challenges and the things that are still missing and still needed. So that. We can really work together on improving the quality, both in practice and in policy.

[00:28:46] Ismael: And when those ending notes, we are reached an end to our episode. Thank you very much, Marta and Darko for participating in this podcast and to Lana for co-hosting this episode with me and to all the listeners.

[00:28:57] Ismael: Remember to follow us on Instagram [00:29:00] @eucoeyouth to stay up to date with all our future content. Thank you very much and see you next time.