Dariusz: Welcome to Under 30 the podcast
series by the youth partnership that

brings the research results, explores
trends in young people's lives and themes

relevant for youth policy and practice.

In previous episodes of our
podcast we have explored different

topics covered in the latest Youth
Knowledge Book on Young People,

Social Inclusion and Digitalization.

In this episode, we would like to focus
on another topic you can find in the

knowledge book, digitalization and social
inclusion of youth with disabilities.

This topic is explored in two
articles, which you can find in chapter

three and chapter four of the book.

Today, we are having two authors of
these chapters, Roman Banari, who wrote

an article in which he presents the
challenges for youth with disabilities

related to accessible technology and
provides an insight into how they

can benefit from ICT in order to be
included in participatory processes,

education, and the labor market.

And Judit Gombás, who is a co-author
of the article on digitalization for

the empowerment of individuals with
visual impairments or blindness.

My name is Dariusz Grzemny together
with Lana Pasic, from the EU-Council of

Europe youth partnership, we would like
to invite you to join us in this episode.

Lana: Today, we are speaking with
Roman Banari and Judit Gombás about

two of their chapters in a Youth
Knowledge Book and Social Inclusion,

Digitalization, and Young People.

The topic of today's podcast is
digitalization and ICT as a support

for young people with disabilities.

So we will start with Roman who will
tell us about his chapter in the book.

This is chapter three on
digitalization and ICT as a

guarantee for the social inclusion
of young people with disabilities.

Roman: Okay, thanks lana.

As a start, I would like to say why I
chose this topic in order to make some

bridges, connection between youth with
disability and first of all, also I

tend to create connection in the chapter
between the young people, civil society

and the governmental structure in order
to ensure what strategies and actions are

connected to young people with disability
, in order to ensure that young people

with disabilities are not left behind.

So ensuring that the EU standards and
national requirements related to social

inclusion of young people are respected.

So giving some, uh, insights on
how to ensure that the young people

with disability have to be included
in youth actions related to youth

participation in decision-making process
and how governmental structure could

ensure what the youth disability,
with different forms of disability

hearing or visual, could effectively
participate in participation processes.

Also, I tend to make some connection
with youth, social inclusion standards

related to smart cities, how these
could help, uh, in social inclusion

and participation of young people
in the development of our society.

As young people at the present do not
play so crucial role in a society as

they are excluded or discriminated due
to a lack of information accessible

for them, or a lack of infrastructure.

So due to digitalization and other
forms of accessibility of information

or infrastructure, we will ensure
that young people are engaged actively

in these forms of participation.

Lana: Thank you Roman.

And, in your chapter, you cover different
groups of young people and different

types of disabilities and the tools.

And also you identify some of
the tools which are designed

for youth with disabilities.

On the other hand, Judit has taken a
very particular approach for her chapter,

with her colleagues Mária Magdolna
Flamich and Mária Rita Hoffmann, and

they explored particularly digitalization
for the empowerment of individuals

with visual impairment and blindness.

So Judit what is it that you explore
in your chapter and how does technology

help young people, but also not only
young people with visual impairments

Judit: Yeah.

To share a personal background with you,
it's important to say that I am blind.

Maria, my colleague, she's also
blind and Maria Rita Hoffmann,

she's a low vision person.

And actually, you know, we experienced
in all our life this change.

Let me tell you examples, then
it's easier to understand.

Eh, when I started my education,
I only had a possibility to use

Braille to do all the reading and
writing in, um, my school years.

And I was around 18 when
I got my first laptop.

Already, you can imagine
what a huge change it was.

I could, for example, simply write
my tests on the computer and give

them on a pen drive to my teachers.

So, you know, it meant a lot before
that we didn't have, let's say a

language, which we could both use.

So I couldn't read or write,
um, you know, normal print.

My teachers couldn't read or
write Braille, so that was tough.

So everything like nowadays, what
we experience is that it's much,

much, much easier to communicate,
thanks to digitalization.

And another very important thing is that
it's just uncomparable what an amount of

information blind and low vision people
can get a hold of thanks to the internet.

Thanks to the possibility
of scanning materials.

So like before that we only had, in
the good old days, you know, audio tapes

with audio books or Braille books, but
it was just way much less information.

So actually the reason why we chose
this topic and we wanted to give what we

wanted to put together a very practical
chapter to show our audience in what

ways digitalization can help blind
and low vision people, how we are able

to use computers or smart devices.

And so the technology that enables us
to be more proficient in our studies, in

work, in free time activities, and so on.

Dariusz: Judit, you quote in the end
of your article the director of the

IBM national support center for persons
with disabilities who said that for most

people, technology makes things easier
and for people with disabilities,

technology makes things possible.

So if you can say a few words what's made
possible for people with disabilities

thanks to technology, thanks to ICT.

Or in practical terms, how ICT, how
technology, how digitalization is

actually supporting the daily routine
or daily tasks, basically your life,

the life of people will disabilities.

Judit: Wow.

I should mention lots of things.

I couldn't be chatting with
you now without a screen reader

and an accessible webpage.

So, you know, it's really important
that I not only have a screen reader,

but also this page is accessible.

I can read the buttons well, I can
use it well, or I can do my shopping.

I can read all the full list of
ingredients of the products, if I'm

interested, you know, earlier I just
went to the shop, try to find a shop

assistant, told the person what I need.

But I had to be much more focused.

It had to be a very quick
process, you know, because the

shop assistants are super busy.

So now I can use a lot of time to
read through all the things that

I'm interested in, if the web page
of course is accessible, or I can

simply listen to a audio book, on
my smartphone when I'm sitting on

the train or the public transport.

So lots of things are possible.

And there's one thing
I would love to stress.

Is that, we do need to Braille.

I'm really for using Braille and there
are fantastic ways of comparing,

let me say old technology and new
technology, so there are devices called

the refreshable Braille display that
you can connect to your computer.

So you can simply read in Braille
what can be seen on the screen.

And this is very important because, you
know, blind students, low vision students

also need to learn, correct spelling.

Also need to learn what a text looks
like, for example, and these things

are way easier with a Braille display.

So when you listen to an audio text,
you just can't learn spelling.

So, you know, I think what is very
important today or these days is to see

that, uh, that we should, um, find a good
balance between digitalization and all

the new technology and how to combine it
well and efficiently with all technology.

But really I could tell you a super long
list of the things that it helps with.

For example with my phone, I can check
what bank notes I have in my wallet.

Hungarian forints are all the
same size, so there's no other

way for me to recognize them.

Or I can check colors with my smartphone.

So really lots and lots of things.

Dariusz: That's very interesting because
usually when we read or hear about people

or young people with disabilities, when
it comes to their contact with digital

technologies, there's a lot of focus
on what challenges they are facing.

And probably there's a lot of challenges.

And actually when we turn upside
down what you just actually said,

this would be the challenges.

That the page is not accessible,
that you can not follow, that

you cannot read and so on.

So I think that these
are a lot of challenges.

There's a lot of standards that
could be applied when it comes

to making technology accessible.

How we actually know about them.

If we are a youth organization, if
we are a group of young people and

we want to involve young people, how
can we know about these standards?

So Roman, what we actually should start
with as let's say youth organization, when

we really want to involve young people
with disabilities in our activities, or

give them the space for participation
and involve young people, hearing the

voice of young people with disabilities.

Roman: Okay, thanks Darek.

In fact, we can start from our everyday
world, where can see without these

standards, without knowing about this.

So we can see accessibility of our
offices, of our spaces where do we

tend to organise some activities.

Even our websites could be a
observed if we are accessible or not

accessible for those with disability.

So I'm having some filters for
accessibility for people with

disabilities, but then when it's coming
to more concrete standards, you can

use ISO standards which regulate all
steps or how we can use one or other

tools for people with disabilities.

Or some other general principles of
accessibility are developed by UN

where we have a possibility to use
seven principles of accessibility

related to youth with disability.

But more effectively, I suppose, Judit
will support my idea , we have to involve

people with disability in developing
these concrete apps or different tools

for people with disability because we are
developers, but without knowing exactly

how people with disability feel this, how
they use this in their daily life, without

this, we will not prepare any tools
which are individualised for each person.

Judit: If I may add something.

Yeah, I absolutely, I fully
agree with Roman that we need to

ask persons with disabilities.

And you may say as an NGO c'mon,
but I don't know any blind

developers who could give me advice.

I would say no worries about that
because I'm pretty sure in each

country there's uh, at least one big
organization, but I'm pretty sure in

most countries, there are many big
organizations of people with disabilities.

In Hungary I would say to the Federation
for the blind and visually impaired,

if we just stay with people with visual
impairments, but all other bigger

disability groups have these organizations
supporting them and they can give you

practical advice on who to turn to.

So I don't think that, you know,
all the NGOs should start trying

to learn all these standards.

On the other hand, it would be
really cool to have web developers

who are into the standards and
who are aware of the standards.

Unfortunately, my experience is that
we, we just don't have many of them.

So I believe it does help a lot
if you, as an NGO, for example,

try to find a bigger disability
organization who you can turn to.

And another thing is, all these
support pages are really important.

So for example, if you want to use,
I don't know, zoom in your activities

or any other platform, video
conferencing platform before you decide

you can either ask a person with a
disability or, or you can check their

support sites to see to what extent
those are disability friendly pages.

Roman: If I may add, for example, after
this chapter, we asked national youth

council to decide to change our webpage
in order to make it accessible, according

to what I presented in this chapter.

So, we found money for this change and
the, we made these accessibility standards

for people with disabilities, different
kinds of the accessibility standards.

But here I wanted to point out, uh, yeah,
we sometimes know how to deal with this

and how to engage our community in order
to make some information accessible.

But unfortunately in case of civil
society, we have a lot of problems,

uh, related to accessibility because
for a world changing or adaptation

of our webpage or even more, offices
and so on,we need some resources.

Without having support from a diverse
donors or government, we will not

be able to ensure these in practice.

So, for this we tend to have good
collaboration with all actors who

are interested in this, in order to
ensure tha we are able to make minimal

accessibility standards in our activities.

But without supports, I am not
sure if civil society will be

able to conduct and to ensure that
we are fully accessible for all.

Judit: Just one more thought.

Earlier Darek, you referred to perhaps
you said side effects or negative things.

Now one super big obstacle I
would say is, uh, is also a Roman

mentioned the price of things.

So lots of accessibility
devices are super expensive.

The refreshable Braille displays
that I mentioned before are so, so

expensive at least with Hungarian
standards, for example, that very,

very few people have them in Hungary.

And it's also a problem that
often developers charge much

higher prices if you ask them to
develop an accessible webpage.

Which, you know, should be a basic
expectation to have your pages accessible.

I mean, the page that you develop.

So yeah, there's a lot
to do, uh, finance wise.

Dariusz: Yeah, this was actually
one of my points I wanted to ask

you that this is probably one of
the points that discourages a lot

of smaller organizations that maybe
do not have enough resources to

standardize, or to keep up with the
standards that are available in order

to make the websites accessible.

But I quite liked what you said at
the beginning that maybe it's not

important to start with big things.

It's maybe important to start with
something that you are able to start with.

And one of the things that doesn't cost
anything is actually asking people with

disabilities, what they would need, what
would make their life easier or how

it would make it possible for them to
be included in what they are doing.

I think this is maybe some kind of
advice for policymakers, for people

who are establishing programs that
are supporting, financing youth

organizations, to be able to actually
support organizations in making things

possible for people with disabilities.

So making the websites or any material
that they are producing online,

accessible for people with disabilities.

I think there's a lot good
initiatives that are open source that

are free as well that you can use.

Probably they are not so good,
but this is also a good start,

maybe for youth organizations.

Lana: I think as technology is a fast
changing and developing, and there are

so many tools and artificial intelligence
is also developing and supporting

us kind of in using these tools.

But the big moment as well is
advocacy and kind of demands

for things to be accessible.

At the youth partnership we have seen
through our conversations with young

people as well these kind of questions
regarding the materials that we produce.

And these podcast, for example, are just
one of the ways in which we try to make

our publication and now research closer
to different groups of young people.

And it is also a question of not only
accessibility in terms of hearing

things now, instead of reading the
book, but also presenting materials

in different languages, using
subtitles for some of our videos.

And I think in the youth sector now
it's quite expected to use transcripts,

for example, for the videos and for
podcasts, instead of just producing the

materials only in one form or one format.

Judit: Yeah.

I think it's very important
what you are now saying.

And I believe we just cannot stress
enough that, you know, when you hear

the word accessibility, most people
immediately think of wheelchairs and

blind people, and we mustn't forget that
accessibility is important for everyone.

So, I mean, you may be, I don't
know, coming from any country of

the world that say you are moving
to Germany, but your standard of

Germany is not high enough yet.

Then for example, a document or a website
in easy language is important for you,

helps you a lot, supports your daily life.

I mean, you know, it's not that
easy language is only important for

people who we have, I don't know,
learning difficulties, for example,

or any other, reading difficulty.

So like, or I don't know accessibility
of infrastructure is important for you

if you have a baby in a push chair.

So it's like accessibility means
way more than access for people

with disabilities to digitalization
or to the infrastructure.

Roman: We need the once again,
resources and those who have knowledge,

how to make, for example, easy
to read materials for people with

disabilities, with mental (disabilities).

So, here there is another problem, in
case of a civil society representatives

who do not have some much money for this.

Yeah, we are interested to promote
vis accessibility standards, but as

usually we don't have the knowledge
and the expertise, how to do this.

And in case we do not have money for
experts, we will not provide this.

And this is a problem of civil
society and, my request is to engage

more governments or other state
institutions who will contribute to

the accessibility of the youth sector.

Dariusz: Yeah.

I think the resources are important,
but I think what's very important is

also the change of mind, , or change
a little bit of perspective because I

think that sometimes if you really want
to include people with disabilities

in our activities, any activities
of any organization or institution,

and then we are applying for funds.

Very often we don't think that
we can actually apply for funds

to make things accessible.

And I think that this is like the way of
thinking or how you organize our activity.

I mean, always to think about possibility
of including the request for funds

that actually would make things
accessible for people with disabilities.

And I think that this is the starting
point, whether it will be granted

or not, it's another issue, but I
think thinking and putting it forward

is the first step that you actually
can do, which I think is simple.

Thank you all for your contribution.

And just to remind our listeners, you can
find the articles we have been talking

about in chapters three and four of the
Youth Knowledge Book on Young People,

Social Inclusion and Digitalization.

Thank you for listening.